The Gold Standard Luxury Travel Forum

diebroke Posted: Tuesday, July 14, 3:09 PM

I have read 3 items recently which stimulated the musical question; "Is cruising really travel?



One is the YouTube video promoting the new travel magazine AFAR. The link is on Eric's blog. It's a good clip & a promising magazine.



The second is a blog by Arthur Frommer about his 12 day Med cruise

http://www.frommers.com/blog/ in which he concludes that he recommends a Med cruise, but he doesn't call it travel.



The third is a quote by St. Augustine my wife found that says; "The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page."



I don't have an answer to my question. I have only taken one real cruise - Seabourn from Istanbul to Venice. (I don't count the 60 passenger ice breaker in which we attempted to circumnavigate Svalbard or the 100 passenger expedition ship to Antarctica.) Our Seabourn cruise was fantastic. I enjoyed the luxury food & service as well as the sights we saw and, it was much easier than land based trips. I must confess, I didn't have any of the memorable cultural experiences we have had on our many land based trips, particularly in small towns after the tourist buses have left for the day.



I am looking forward to our upcoming luxury cruises. I'm not sure I should call them travel. Maybe it doesn't matter as long as we enjoy it. Perhaps the challenging trips that are developmental are best done in our youth.


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Colonel(Ret)Wes Posted: Tuesday, July 14, 9:46 PM

Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 39


Diebroke, good ?, for us cruising is travel. Dictionary defintion is to go from one place to another as by car, train or ship. We have enjoyed traveling by lux cruise ship throughout the Caribbean, Tahiti, and Europe (Portugal). We love the lux cruise rhythm you experience when traveling by ship; by contrast we have lived in Europe for 11 years and have traveled to most European cities by land...great travel when we were in our 30's and 40's but we prefer cruising in our 50's...frommer may be right when he wants to immerse himself in the culture of the destination..but for us just to touch the surface of what life is like in Bora Bora, Moorea, Funchal, Dominica or Grenada is exactly what we want from our lux cruise travel. Also, agree AFAR sounds like an interesting travel magazine idea (havesubscribed..in fact this weekend, they had an online survey, and the first ten responders earned an AFAR t-shirt..I won an AFAR t-shirt).


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Eric Goldring Posted: Wednesday, July 15, 9:37 AM

Joined: 12/17/2008
Posts: 214




Wes, congrats on your big win! (You know you can only wear it if you travel, right?)



Anyway, I hope more people jump in on this thread. It can really be a good one...and one which this forum was really started to encourage.



So....rather than take it over, I have posted my thoughts on This Is My Yacht blog today. What do you think?




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seabournfan Posted: Wednesday, July 15, 3:50 PM

Joined: 4/29/2009
Posts: 7


Eric Goldring wrote:


Wes, congrats on your big win! (You know you can only wear it if you travel, right?)



Anyway, I hope more people jump in on this thread. It can really be a good one...and one which this forum was really started to encourage.



So....rather than take it over, I have posted my thoughts on This Is My Yacht blog today. What do you think?





Of course cruising is travel.

I agree completely with the blog as by going on a cruise I travel to many places, get a taste and know if I like it or not. For better or worse I have fallen in love with Venice (first visited on a cruise) and have gone back again and again. I never would have traveled to Nauplion, Greece had it not been on a cruise. I would have missed what has become one of my favorite places in Greece.





For me, a cruise is the bext way to travel.


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diebroke Posted: Wednesday, July 15, 7:58 PM

Joined: 4/5/2009
Posts: 58


I’m not sure it’s legitimate to answer my own question, but since Eric does not have any rules for this forum, I’ll take a shot.

Of course cruising is travel & Arthur Frommer is wrong.

Maybe a better question would have been, is cruising as “life enriching” as land based travel.

The guys who founded AFAR talk in the YouTube video about the difference between escapism & sightseeing vs. personal growth through experiential travel.

I confess to doing a lot of escapism & sightseeing on my one cruise.

Certainly visiting great museums & viewing artistic masterpieces or walking in Grecian ruins guided by a knowledgeable historian is just as developmental an experience whether you arrive by ship or land based transportation.

I think cruises can make it more difficult to have a personal growth experience because:

• It is less likely you will have a serendipitous experience on a guided tour than if you are on your own. I think cruise lines work hard to prevent the unexpected.
• It is more difficult to “get beneath the surface” as the AFAR guys discuss if you are on a drive-by with a maximum of a few hours in one place.
• I will admit that on my only 14 days on a cruise ship, at 5:00pm, all thought of personal development stopped and my focus was entirely on waistline development. I overachieved on this goal. On land based travel, I have had a lot of unique, cultural experiences after 5pm.
• For all of us, much of our personal development happened when we were taken outside our “comfort zone.” Luxury cruise lines work hard to keep us in our comfort zone and particularly in my old age, I’m o.k. with that. If you want to maximize development, travel with Paul Theroux as discussed in the book section of this forum. You will not find him on a cruise ship nor will you find me accompanying him at my current life stage.

My take-away is a comment by Eric on his blog; “It is incumbent upon the traveler to do that which they originally intended to do: Travel”
Cruises don’t prevent that from happening, but they make it easy to get lazy and just enjoy the luxury experience.



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Eric Goldring Posted: Thursday, July 16, 8:22 AM

Joined: 12/17/2008
Posts: 214




You raise a couple of points I want to comment on.



First, there is no question that "immersion" types of experiences are not nearly as possible. Time just doesn't permit it. Neither do the 7 am - 5 pm port calls. However, the cruise lines are modifying their itineraries so that there is more time in port (say to 11 pm or overnight) and in some instances are using two ports which are very close by (juggling the demand for casinos and shops being open against the traveler who wants more off-ship time).



However, there are many ports where one day really is enough...or near enough to. Yes, I could spend more time in Patmos, a small Greek island, but to be honest there are places I would rather spend more of my time. Same for Rhodes, Tarragona in Spain, Le Lavandou in France, Savona in Italy (OK, maybe half a day there), etc. Rome in a single day is tough, but more than two days and I would be in "get me outta here" mode. But Venice, Florence, Barcelona, etc. time is your friend.



That, of course, gives the traveler a great opportunity to utilize the time prior to and after the cruise to balance the immersion desires and the one day "tastes". Immerse yourself in Barcelona and/or Madrid, Rome, Venice, Athens, Istanbul or any of the other port of embarkation/disembarkation and you have a pretty good balance.



Second, touched on by Seabournfan, there are many ports you simply would not get to or be willing to put the time and/or effort into getting to. I mentioned Patmos and Rhodes. She mentioned Naplion (which you can, btw, drive from Athens - but most don't). The 2009 Goldring Travel Food & Wine Cruise is going to Slovenia, Montenegro and Croatia, as well as Italy. How many would as readily visit these areas? I bet not many.



So, I guess the point is there is, for the well-immersed traveler, a balance that need be struck. Needs and desires that must be titrated. And that is why anyone who says the only vacation is a cruise vacation either works for the cruise line or probably doesn't have the desire/mindset for immersion-type travel experiences.




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Colonel(Ret)Wes Posted: Thursday, July 16, 12:45 PM

Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 39


Diebroke, fair winds and following seas for your August Regent/Voyager cruise..pls report back


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diebroke Posted: Thursday, July 16, 1:34 PM

Joined: 4/5/2009
Posts: 58




Thank you Col. Wes. So far, the pre-cruise seas with Regent have been stormy.



btw, I may have mentioed in a previous post (my memory is long gone) that research by credible academics (I am not one) has shown that the most developmental experience anyone can have is an ex-pat assignment in a foreign country, particularly one that does not speak your native language.

This research has been validated by the wisdom of your posts and by the fact that you snagged an AFAR t-shirt and I did not.




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diebroke Posted: Saturday, August 15, 4:49 PM

Joined: 4/5/2009
Posts: 58


Colonel(Ret)Wes wrote:
Diebroke, fair winds and following seas for your August Regent/Voyager cruise..pls report back


Col Wes, Your good wishes for fair winds and following seas were granted. Perhaps you should have added wishes for good food & service.

I have submitted a review to Andrea hoping to win a big, vaulable prize.

The summary for us is that the ship is magnificent, the itinerary fantastic, and the food & service nothing special & sometimes poor.


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Eric Goldring Posted: Saturday, August 15, 9:43 PM

Joined: 12/17/2008
Posts: 214


Diebroke,



Welcome home.



Please post your review here as well. Andrea is not looking for exclusivity, but rather a compilation.



Can I say those words: I told you so. The hardware only goes so far. So with the Voyager a quality ship, especially after her major refit, it seems it is the same old same old.



I am very interested in your comments


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diebroke Posted: Thursday, September 3, 11:31 AM

Joined: 4/5/2009
Posts: 58


Eric,

Welcome back. I enjoyed reading about your adventures on your blog. I am posting here because your trip is a good example of how a cruise can be an enriching travel experience - not because of anything the cruise ship offered but because of how you spent your time. Your experiences with your first dinner in Civitavecchia and your stays in Palestine & Egypt could not have happened on the ship. The cruise line would have worked hard to prevent some of those things from happening. However, the cruise did get you to the places that enabled these experiences.

I read 2 quotes today that reminded me of this thread:

Paul Theroux; “Tourists don’t know where they’ve been; travelers don’t know where they’re going.”
(In an AFAR ad.)

Richard Holbrooke; “If you don’t travel, you can forget that people in other parts of the world are human beings too.”

Both remind me why I traveled in my youth & now cruise in old age.
I give my kids the same advice (especially when they want me to take them on a Seabourn cruise.)

I thought of this thread when I read the article "Why We Travel" by Paul Theroux.
http://travel.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/travel/03Cover.html?nl=travel&emc=tda1

I agree with it, and don't expect we will see Paul on a Seabourn cruise (or any other cruise ship) anytime soon.

Your confession that your 3 days on the Quest was not travel is noted. I look forward to "traveling" with you on the 2012 food & wine cruise.

diebroke wrote:Your confession that your 3 days on the Quest was not travel is noted. I look forward to "traveling" with you on the 2012 food & wine cruise.

And, yes, we are going to "TRAVEL"!

BTW, I am working on something that if it works out you will be very happy. It is kind of a long shot, but I am working on it. I won't say anymore!

You are not the first teaser I have experienced.
I will pay whatever it takes to have lunch/dinner with the owner or winemaker at Château Mouton Rothschild. (or any other first growth Bordeaux estate.)

Iamboatman wrote:]


BTW, I am working on something that if it works out you will be very happy. It is kind of a long shot, but I am working on it. I won't say anymore!

Free internet,Free laundry,Real Caviar,Dinner with the Captain,Sommeliers that actually know something about wine,Shopping with Erics wife(guest to pay),Totally non smoking ship,Nudist dress code.Real singers and quieter musicians.A total ban on any little old lady that wants to take over the ship with themed parties.

Have I missed anything out Eric?

Lord of the Seas wrote:

Iamboatman wrote:]


BTW, I am working on something that if it works out you will be very happy. It is kind of a long shot, but I am working on it. I won't say anymore!

Free internet,Free laundry,Real Caviar,Dinner with the Captain,Sommeliers that actually know something about wine,Shopping with Erics wife(guest to pay),Totally non smoking ship,Nudist dress code.Real singers and quieter musicians.A total ban on any little old lady that wants to take over the ship with themed parties.

Have I missed anything out Eric?

You want to pay to go shopping with my wife? Your Lordship, you might want to consider lifting the total ban on any little old lady that wants to take over the ship with themed parties! :LOL